The EU should respect democratic referendums
Over the past few years the EU has suffered a lot of rejection to treaties only to have them rerun or just ignored them. I propose every nations people should get to vote on treaties and we should should have another one on an EU constitution that the EU snuck in the backdoor when the French and Dutch rejected it, people should be able to decide their future not some technocrats, if that means the end of the EU so be it, you can't oppose the will of the people and claim to be democratic.
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{"body":{"en":"Over the past few years the EU has suffered a lot of rejection to treaties only to have them rerun or just ignored them. I propose every nations people should get to vote on treaties and we should should have another one on an EU constitution that the EU snuck in the backdoor when the French and Dutch rejected it, people should be able to decide their future not some technocrats, if that means the end of the EU so be it, you can't oppose the will of the people and claim to be democratic.","machine_translations":{"bg":"През последните няколко години ЕС беше подложен на голям отказ от договорите само заради повторното им прилагане или току-що да ги игнорира. Предлагам на всички нации да гласуват по договори и трябва да имаме друга по конституция на ЕС, която ЕС да отблъсне в обратната врата, когато френските и нидерландските го отхвърлиха, хората следва да могат да решават своето бъдеще, а не някои технократи, ако това означава краят на ЕС, не може да се противопостави на волята на народа и да твърди, че е демократичен.","cs":"V posledních několika letech se EU potýkala s velkým počtem zamítnutí smluv pouze proto, aby je nechala opakovat nebo je jen ignorovala. Navrhuji všem národům, aby hlasovaly o smlouvách, a my bychom měli mít jinou zemi o ústavě EU, kterou by EU v zadních vrátkách v době, kdy ji francouzština a nizozemština odmítla, měli mít lidé možnost rozhodovat o své budoucnosti, nikoli o technokratech, pokud to znamená konec EU, nemůžete odporovat vůli lidu a tvrdit, že je demokratická.","da":"I løbet af de seneste år har EU været udsat for megen afvisning af traktater for blot at få dem til at genkøre eller blot ignorere dem. Jeg foreslår, at alle nationer får mulighed for at stemme om traktater, og vi bør have en anden om en EU-forfatning, som EU snulerer i bagdøren, når det franske og nederlandske afviser den, og folk bør kunne bestemme deres fremtid og ikke nogle teknokrater. Hvis det betyder, at EU ender, kan du ikke modsætte dig folkets vilje og hævder at være demokratisk.","de":"In den letzten Jahren hat die EU eine große Zahl von Ablehnungen gegenüber Verträgen erlebt, nur um sie zu wiederholen oder sie einfach ignorieren zu lassen. Ich schlage vor, dass jedes Volk über Verträge abstimmen sollte, und wir sollten einen anderen über eine EU-Verfassung haben, die die EU in der Hintertür schmeckt, als die Franzosen und die Niederlande sie ablehnten. Die Menschen sollten in der Lage sein, über ihre Zukunft zu entscheiden, nicht aber einige Technokraten, wenn das heißt, das Ende der EU, Sie können sich dem Willen des Volkes nicht widersetzen und behaupten, demokratisch zu sein.","el":"Τα τελευταία χρόνια, η ΕΕ έχει υποστεί πολλές απορρίψεις στις Συνθήκες μόνο για να τις επαναλάβει ή να τις αγνοήσει. Προτείνω σε όλα τα έθνη να ψηφίσουν τις Συνθήκες και θα πρέπει να έχουμε ένα άλλο για ένα σύνταγμα της ΕΕ, το οποίο η ΕΕ πήγαινε πίσω όταν οι Γάλλοι και οι Κάτω Χώρες την απέρριψαν, οι άνθρωποι θα πρέπει να είναι σε θέση να αποφασίζουν για το μέλλον τους και όχι κάποιοι τεχνοκράτες, εάν αυτό σημαίνει το τέλος της ΕΕ, δεν μπορείτε να αντιταχθείτε στη βούληση του λαού και να ισχυρίζεστε ότι είναι δημοκρατικό.","es":"A lo largo de los últimos años, la UE ha sufrido un gran rechazo a los tratados solo para que vuelvan a gestionarlos o simplemente los ignoren. Propondré a todos los pueblos que voten sobre los tratados y deberíamos tener otra sobre una Constitución de la UE que la UE empañe en la puerta trasera cuando Francia y los Países Bajos la rechazaron, los ciudadanos deberían poder decidir su futuro y no algunos tecnócratas, si eso significa que el final de la UE, ya sea, no puede oponerse a la voluntad del pueblo y afirmar que es democrático.","et":"Viimastel aastatel on EL saanud palju tagasilükkamist lepingutele üksnes selleks, et neid uuesti läbi vaadata või lihtsalt ignoreerida. Teen ettepaneku, et iga rahvas peaks saama aluslepingute üle hääletada ja meil peaks olema veel üks ELi põhiseaduse kohta, mille EL selja taha jättis, kui Prantsusmaa ja Madalmaad selle tagasi lükkasid, peaks inimestel olema võimalik otsustada oma tuleviku üle, mitte mõnede tehnokraatide üle, kui see tähendab ELi lõppu, nii et te ei saa vastu seista rahva tahtele ja väita, et olete demokraatlik.","fi":"Viime vuosina EU on torjunut paljon perussopimuksia vain siksi, että ne ovat uudistaneet niitä tai jättäneet ne huomiotta. Ehdotan, että kaikki kansakunnat äänestäisivät perussopimuksista ja meillä olisi oltava toinen EU:n perustuslaki, jota EU julisti takaoveen, kun Ranska ja Alankomaat hylkäsivät sen, ihmisten pitäisi voida päättää tulevaisuudestaan, ei tietyiltä teknokratseilta, jos tämä tarkoittaa EU:n loppua, ette voi vastustaa kansan tahtoa ja väittää olevansa demokraattinen.","fr":"Au cours des dernières années, l’Union européenne a subi de nombreux refus à l’égard des traités uniquement pour les faire réapparaître ou simplement les ignorer. Je propose que tous les peuples votent sur les traités et que nous devrions en avoir un autre sur une constitution de l’Union européenne, à savoir que l’Union européenne se retrouve dans la porte dérobée lorsque les Français et les Néerlandais l’ont rejetée, les gens devraient être en mesure de décider de leur avenir et non pas de certains technocrates, si cela signifie que la fin de l’UE, que ce soit, que ce soit, vous ne pouvez pas s’opposer à la volonté du peuple et prétendre être démocratique.","ga":"Le blianta beaga anuas, diúltaíodh go leor conarthaí don Aontas Eorpach ionas nach ndéanfaí athbheochan orthu nó nach ndéanfaí ach neamhaird díobh. Molaim do gach náisiún gur cheart do mhuintir vóta a chaitheamh ar chonarthaí agus ba cheart go mbeadh ceann eile againn ar bhunreacht AE a shnochtann an AE sa chúldoras nuair a dhiúltaigh an Fhrainc agus an Ollainnis dó, ba cheart go mbeadh daoine in ann a dtodhchaí a chinneadh seachas teicneoirí áirithe, má fhágann sin go dtagann deireadh leis an AE, ní féidir leat cur i gcoinne thoil na ndaoine agus a mhaíomh go bhfuil siad daonlathach.","hr":"Tijekom proteklih nekoliko godina EU je doživio puno odbijanja ugovora samo zbog njihova ponovnog provođenja ili samo zanemarivanja tih ugovora. Predlažem svim narodima da glasaju o ugovorima i da bismo trebali imati još jednog o ustavu EU-a koji bi EU srušio u stražnjim vratima kada su ga francuski i nizozemski odbili, a građani bi trebali moći odlučiti o svojoj budućnosti, a ne neki tehnokrati, ako to znači kraj EU-a, ne možete se protiviti volji naroda i tvrditi da su demokratski.","hu":"Az elmúlt néhány évben az EU-t csak azért utasították el, hogy újrakezdjék vagy figyelmen kívül hagyják a szerződéseket. Azt javasolom, hogy minden nemzet szavazzon a szerződésekről, egy másikat pedig egy olyan uniós alkotmányról, amelyet az EU a háttérben szent be, amikor a francia és a holland elvet elveti, az embereknek képesnek kell lenniük arra, hogy a jövőjükről döntsenek, ha ez azt jelenti, hogy véget ér az EU, akkor nem lehet ellenezni az emberek akaratát és azt állítani, hogy demokratikusak.","it":"Negli ultimi anni l'UE ha subito un notevole rifiuto ai trattati solo per farli ripetere o semplicemente ignorarli. Propongo a tutte le nazioni di votare i trattati e dovremmo avere un'altra su una costituzione dell'UE in base alla quale l'UE gioca alla spalla quando la Francia e i Paesi Bassi l'hanno respinta, i cittadini dovrebbero essere in grado di decidere il proprio futuro e non alcuni tecnocrati, se ciò significa la fine dell'UE, non puoi opporsi alla volontà dei cittadini e affermare di essere democratico.","lt":"Per pastaruosius kelerius metus ES labai atmesdavo sutartis tik dėl to, kad jos būtų iš naujo priimtos arba tiesiog ignoruotos. Siūlau, kad kiekviena tauta galėtų balsuoti dėl sutarčių, ir turėtume turėti kitą dėl ES konstitucijos, kurią ES atsidūrė užpakalinėje dalyje, kai ją atmetė Prancūzija ir Nyderlandai, žmonės turėtų turėti galimybę apsispręsti dėl savo ateities, o ne kai kuriuos technokratus, jei taip nulemsime ES pabaigą, negalite priešintis žmonių valiai ir teigti, kad jie yra demokratiški.","lv":"Pēdējo gadu laikā ES ir daudz noraidījusi līgumus tikai tāpēc, lai tie tiktu atjaunoti vai tikai ignorēti. ES ierosinu visām tautām balsot par līgumiem, un mums vajadzētu būt vēl vienai par ES konstitūciju, ko ES noslauka aizmugures iekštelpās, kad Francijas un Nīderlandes iestādes to noraidīja, cilvēkiem vajadzētu būt iespējai lemt par savu nākotni, nevis dažiem tehnokrātiem, ja tas nozīmē, ka ES beigas ir tik lielas, ka jūs nevarat iebilst pret tautas gribu un apgalvot, ka tās ir demokrātiskas.","mt":"Matul dawn l-aħħar ftit snin l-UE sofriet ħafna rifjut għat-trattati biss biex dawn jiġu rripetuti jew sempliċiment injorati. Nipproponi li kull nazzjon għandu jiġi vvutat fuq trattati u għandna jkollna oħra fuq kostituzzjoni tal-UE li l-UE tmur lura meta l-Franċiż u n-Netherlandiż irrifjutawha, in-nies għandhom ikunu jistgħu jiddeċiedu l-futur tagħhom u mhux xi teknokratiċi, jekk dan ifisser it-tmiem tal-UE, ma tistax topponi r-rieda tal-poplu u tiddikjara li hija demokratika.","nl":"De afgelopen jaren heeft de EU veel te lijden gehad van een verwerping van verdragen om ze alleen te laten herroepen of gewoon genegeerd te krijgen. Ik stel alle landen voor om te stemmen over verdragen en we zouden een andere moeten hebben over een EU-grondwet die de EU in de achterdeur snijdt wanneer de Franse en Nederlandse delegatie deze afwijzen, mensen moeten kunnen beslissen over hun toekomst en niet over een aantal technocraten, als dat het einde van de EU betekent, u kan zich niet verzetten tegen de wil van de bevolking en beweren democratisch te zijn.","pl":"W ciągu ostatnich kilku lat UE spotkała się z dużym odmową wobec traktatów jedynie dlatego, że zostały one wznowione lub po prostu ignorowane. Proponuję wszystkim narodom głosowanie nad traktatami. Powinniśmy mieć drugie miejsce w sprawie konstytucji UE, którą UE zasłania w tylnym gronie, gdy Francja i Holandia ją odrzuciły, obywatele powinni mieć możliwość decydowania o swojej przyszłości, a nie niektórzy technokraci, jeżeli oznacza to koniec UE, nie może Pan sprzeciwić woli narodu i twierdzić, że jest demokratyczna.","pt":"Nos últimos anos, a UE tem sido muito rejeitada aos tratados apenas para os levar a cabo ou simplesmente ignorá-los. Proponho a todas as nações que os cidadãos votem sobre tratados e devemos ter outra sobre uma Constituição da UE que a UE embate na porta traseira quando os franceses e neerlandeses o rejeitaram, as pessoas devem poder decidir o seu futuro e não alguns tecnocratas, se isso significar o fim da UE, não se pode opor-se à vontade do povo e afirmar ser democrático.","ro":"În ultimii ani, UE a fost mult respinsă față de tratate doar pentru că le-a reluat sau doar le-a ignorat. Propun ca fiecare națiune să voteze cu privire la tratate și ar trebui să avem o alta cu privire la o constituție a UE, în care UE să fie blocată în spate atunci când franceza și olandezii l-au respins, oamenii ar trebui să fie în măsură să decidă viitorul lor, nu unii tehnocrați, dacă acest lucru înseamnă sfârșitul UE, nu vă puteți opune voinței poporului și susțineți că este democratic.","sk":"V posledných rokoch EÚ čelila mnohým odmietnutiam zmlúv len z dôvodu ich obnovenia alebo len ignorovania zmlúv. Navrhujem, aby všetky národy hlasovali o zmluvách a mali by sme mať inú ústavu EÚ, ktorú EÚ zachytila v zadných dverách, keď ju Francúzsko a Holanďania zamietli, ľudia by mali mať možnosť rozhodnúť o svojej budúcnosti nie niektorých technokratov, ak to znamená koniec EÚ, nemôžete sa postaviť proti vôli ľudu a tvrdiť, že je demokratická.","sl":"V zadnjih nekaj letih je EU doživela veliko zavrnitev pogodb le zato, da bi jih obnovili ali jih zgolj prezrli. Vsem narodom predlagam, naj glasujejo o pogodbah, drugo pa bi morali imeti o ustavi EU, ki bi jo EU zavrgla, ko sta jo francoska in nizozemska vlada zavrnili, ljudje pa bi morali imeti možnost odločati o svoji prihodnosti, ne pa nekaterih tehnokratskih demokratov, če to pomeni konec EU, ne morete nasprotovati volji ljudstva in trditi, da je demokratičen.","sv":"Under de senaste åren har EU drabbats av många avvisningar av fördragen endast för att få dem omcertifierade eller bara ignorera dem. Jag föreslår att alla nationer ska rösta om fördragen, och vi bör ha ett annat om en EU-konstitution som innebär att EU snuck i bakdörren när det franska och nederländska förkastade det. Människor bör kunna bestämma sin framtid och inte vissa teknokrater, om det betyder att EU är slutet så, att du inte kan motsätta dig folkets vilja och hävda att den är demokratisk."}},"title":{"en":"The EU should respect democratic referendums","machine_translations":{"bg":"ЕС следва да зачита демократичните референдуми","cs":"EU by měla respektovat demokratická referenda","da":"EU bør respektere demokratiske folkeafstemninger","de":"Die EU sollte demokratische Referenden respektieren","el":"Η ΕΕ θα πρέπει να σεβαστεί δημοκρατικά δημοψηφίσματα","es":"La UE debe respetar los referendos democráticos","et":"EL peaks austama demokraatlikke rahvahääletusi","fi":"EU:n olisi kunnioitettava demokraattisia kansanäänestyksiä","fr":"L’UE doit respecter les référendums démocratiques","ga":"Ba cheart don Aontas Eorpach urraim a thabhairt do reifrinn dhaonlathacha","hr":"EU bi trebao poštovati demokratske referendume","hu":"Az EU-nak tiszteletben kell tartania a demokratikus népszavazásokat","it":"L'UE dovrebbe rispettare i referendum democratici","lt":"ES turėtų gerbti demokratinius referendumus","lv":"ES būtu jārespektē demokrātiski referendumi","mt":"L-UE għandha tirrispetta r-referenda demokratiċi","nl":"De EU moet democratische referenda eerbiedigen","pl":"UE powinna szanować demokratyczne referenda","pt":"A UE deve respeitar os referendos democráticos","ro":"UE ar trebui să respecte referendumurile democratice","sk":"EÚ by mala rešpektovať demokratické referendá","sl":"EU bi morala spoštovati demokratične referendume","sv":"EU bör respektera demokratiska folkomröstningar"}}}
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28 comments
Conversation
Ratification of treaties is a matter for Member States, according to their own constitutions and laws. Referendums are not legally possible in all member states, and if possible are not always the procedural norm. Direct democracy is only one model of democracy.
"The EU" or "Technocrats" did not make the decisions leading to ratification of altered or substitute treaties post rejected referendums, Member State politicians negotiated and ratified them.
It is not accurate to characterize notably altered treaties consistent with concerns of the citizens of Member States being approved as being "asked to rerun" - in the Irish case significant changes were made both in terms of specific opt outs and general features of treaties - which were then approved by voters. The constitutional treaty never came into force as it had been envisaged.
Is the proposal to require future treaty changes to be approved by citizens in one Pan-Union referendum?
Were do I start...
The French and Dutch rejected an EU constitution only to have it brought in through the backdoor, D'estaing is on record as saying it was brought make in the form of amendments and deliberately made unreadable, they also removed all language referring to flags and anthems in the Lisbon treaty to hide its political ambitions and cut off any calls for referendums on it, that's antidemocratic and administrative abuse.
Regarding the Irish "neverendums" we had Sarkozy telling us "the Irish must vote again!" and we did have to vote again until we gave the EU approved answer, imagine that a French politician telling the sovereign Irish people they would have to vote again.... Seems when it's a Yes vote the referendums are suddenly "binding" but when it's a no, we'll they just have to be rum again... Of course they wanted more EU, dubious democracy at best. It seems in the EU a no vote is only ever temporary whilst a yes vote is forever...
I hope you do realise the Irish weren't asked to vote on the same text. There were modifications made once the Irish parliament expressed elements that should be changed in order for the Irish to agree. Which seems exactly like a normal thing to do in a democracy : when you refuse something, you explain why, and then we try and work out a compromise you would agree to. Otherwise simply casting out an entire project because of a refusal without any context seems anti democratic.
I'll also add that the Spanish and Luxemburgers actually voted "yes" to the 2005 treaty, so why listen to France and the Netherlands but silence Spain and Luxemburg ? That's democratic and national abuse. Furthermore, if you tally up all votes cast during the 4 referendums, "no" had 22 667 823 votes and "yes" had 26 662 958 votes. So how can you legitimately defend the democracy of such referendums with an arbitrary rule designed to prevent its ratification even with a 4 million vote difference in favor of yes ?
The Irish were sunjevted to some of the most disgusting bullying and lies I've ever seen, I was a no campaigner here during both referendums, we had Sarkozy telling us "the Irish must vote again!" and other politicians in Europe who nobody in Ireland ever voted for. It was clear what was about to happen, and it did, they tacked on a few concessions as an excuse for a revote and funded a massive propaganda campaign full of lies. This after we were told our vote would be respected, the EU has made a mockery of the democratic process, like the French and Dutch referendums on an EU constitution only to have their votes ignored, people don't want more EU but the EU is going to make sure they get it anyways.
So at least you admit concessions were made, so Irish didn't vote twice on the same text. Now you say the "yes" campaigners were full of lies and the referendum was overturned because of money basically. So what makes you say the no campaign didn't also do the same ? Furthermore, the "no" campaign in France was full of lies and even racist lies to scaremonger and push people to vote "no" based on things that weren't in the Treaty. If you are angry at the Irish results, you should be, for the exact same reasons you mention, angry at the "no" vote in France.
I'll reiterate my second comment : why do you complain the French and Dutch weren't listened to but you don't adress the Spanish and Luxemburgers who were for an EU constitution but got a dilluted treaty instead ? You said in another comment democracy is the tyranny of the majority, so what about the 4 million more votes in favor of the 2005 Treaty ? So it was undemocratic to stop the ratification process of the 2005 Treaty.
Conversation
No, referendums are not really democratic, when they decide about existenitial questions. Democracy is not the dictatorship of the majority. And the majority can easily be controled by media oligarchs like in Rurkey or Russia.
IMO the right way for more democracy in the EU is DEMARCHY. We should install a demarchic institution parallel to commission and parliament.
Eh its people deciding their future, that's their right especially when it comes to something like the EU, I'm pretty sure it's in the UN charter of rights. The way for more democracy in the EU is to give it a democratic basis by asking the people's consent instead of using stealth and manipulation to try achieve their aims, no wonder there is so much EU scepticism.
No, in a democracy the people can never decide over essential democratic values. It's not democratic when in a society of 51% wolves and 49% lambs the majority decides to habe lamb for dinner.
Unfortunately Switzerland is a negative example. Several referendums in Switzerland resulted in decisions which are in contradiction to the European Human Rights Convention. The will of the people is highly volatile and is vulnerable by populists.
The will of the majority is how democracy functions..
Democratic values? Like rerunning referendums until they get the desired result or just outright them? The EU has suffered a series of humiliating rejections in referendums, it opposes the will of the people,infact they've done serious damage and undermined confidence in the democratic process, the EU being labelled antidemocratic it didnt just appear out of nowhere, now all of a sudden it wants to listen to people(trying to quell growing EU scepticism) after it's maneuvered itself into position.what you get with the EU is fairly dubious democracy at best, in the EU a no vote is only ever temporary whilst a yes vote is forever... If the EU had it way it would vote the people out! Of course EU populists seem a-OK with that.
Daithi, democracy is not all about referendums. I believe Tom is referring to the problem whereby absolute direct democracy could used be a majority to take away the rights of a minority.
The two most prominent potential democratic reforms of EU are the European Electoral Lists - making part of the European Parliament election a proportional vote across the Union by party, and heading those lists with lead candidates (spitzenkandidaten) for Commission President. With that change, at European elections voters could choose a European Party and local representative, and know the party with the most voters would head the Commission.
I posted an idea here for general elections in Member States to be run at the same time, so voters could see the European picture as well as national picture clearly.
"EU populists" are generally the most adamant about democratic reforms of the EU - and much of the "secrecy" of the EU is a false impression due to national media focus on national politics.
@ Daithi Ó Shea "The will of the majority is how democracy functions.. "
You are SOOOO WRONG! No, democracy can easily exist without any elections, and indeed demarchy (this is democracy by lot instead of elections) was the first kind of democracy. But democracy cannot exist without it's core values: freedom, equality, solidarity.
Democracy means that the people rule. All of the People, not only the majority of voters. What does it mean that ALL citizens rule? This simply means that without any exception, all citizens are free to shape their lives according to their own ideas, and that their freedom is only limited by the rights and freedom of others. And if no one, no matter how large a majority, is allowed to deny me my democratic rights, then in a good democratic constitution these rights must also be inaccessible to the majority of the electorate.
I'm sorry but you are the one who is "SOOOO WRONG"
that's how democracy functions in the majority of places, except in the EU, we're if you vote against the EU you have to vote again or just get your result ignored...
"Majority rule is a decision rule that selects alternatives which have a majority, that is, more than half the votes. It is the binary decision rule used most often in influential decision-making bodies, including all the legislatures of democratic nations"
"Majoritarian democracy, as opposed to constitutional democracy, refers to democracy based upon majority rule of a society's citizens. Majoritarian democracy is the conventional form of democracy used as a political system in many countries."
Infact the EU only seems to progress when it's being antidemocratic and technocratic..
@ Daithi Ó Shea "I'm sorry but you are the one who is "SOOOO WRONG"
that's how democracy functions in the majority of places, except in the EU, we're if you vote against the EU you have to vote again or just get your result ignored... "
No, you are wrong. and my simple example with a society of wolves and lambs shows this. Have a look at the constitution of Germany: the core democratic values ard NOT at the disposal of any kind of majority. The are valid forever. And the germans had good reason to prohibit the modification of the constitution at this point. Look at the referendum in Germany in 1934: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934Germanreferendum. 95.65% registered voters/turnout, 89.93% YES to the dictatorship. Or look at the swiss minaret controversy, where in a referendum a majority decided to remove rights from muslims, which are still valid for the christians.
I'm sorry you've done nothing to convince me...
Take brexit as an example, that's the will of the majority, you can waffle on about sheep and wolves but under what you're saying it leads to an abuse of the system, and nothing would ever get done.
@ Daithi Ó Shea
"'I´m sorry you've done nothing to convince me..."
I cannot convince everybody. I tried, but some people still believe that 2+2 does not equal 4.
"Take brexit as an example, that's the will of the majority"
Brexit is a very good example for my point. At first, the brexit does not violate any democratic principle. All democratic rights for all UK- and EU-citizens are still fully respected. Second: the outcome of the brexit poll is not a democratic legitimation for a hard brexit. Democracy demands to find a compromise between brexiteers and remainers.
I showed you an example in Switzerland, where in a referendum the majority decided to violate the rights of a minority. This could happen only because Sitzerland is not so democratic as most people believe, and because Switzerland has no effective control to prohibit referendums over human rights of minorities, and because a ultra right media oligarch in Switzerland has massive control over the public opinion.
I think what you're trying to do is legitimise blatant antidemocratic behaviour, I think you'll find in most places in the world its the will of the majority, you might not like that but hey that's life.
What I've also failed to add(I'm not sure links are allowed) is some context, backround to why I know the EU is antidemocratic, aswell as quotes from various bureaucrats at the time that leave no doubt to its antidemocratic behaviour.
"I think you'll find in most places in the world its the will of the majority, you might not like that but hey that's life. "
Yes, there are many dictatorships in the world. Russia, Iran, Turkey etc are not democratic countries, but there the "majority" rules.
You don't know what democracy is, and I failed in explaining it to you. I think we can stop this pesonal discussion now.
@ Daithi O Shea Did the UK have to vote again? If you create 10 referendums for the same thing you will get 10 times the same answer unless the population has changed their opinion.
It's dubious democracy and only seems to work one way... When the EU doesn't get the answer it wants. Funny thing is the EU has no problem in criticising other countries that do the same, the irony is lost on them..
@daithi_o_shea Brexit wasn't passed by a majority of the British electorate. Only 16 million people voted in favor of Brexit out of 45 million
Except in the EU you aren't free to shape your lives, the EU does that in cahoots with treasonous national politicians for you, it holds the people of Europe in contempt... They can't be trusted to vote the EU way...
Brexit is an example of the dangers...
The UK doesn't have a well codified process for referendums, the "advisory" non legally binding result was treated as sacred
Simple question was asked on complex topic with many trade, rights and constitutional implications without a clear proposal
Polling showed UK majority wanted to remain except for a narrow window at the time of the vote, when people were subjected to enormous amounted of highly targeted disinfo
Right to live and work in the EU was taken away from UK citizens who didn't vote for brexit, or didn't vote at all, against their wishes, same for EU citizens in UK, who didn't get to vote!
The "majority" was narrow and was only of those who voted, not of the electorate or population
Ugly "enemy of people" rhetoric was used against courts etc.
Many businesses, lives, ruined. NI peace now?
I agree the EU shouldn't ignore referendum results, that's reasonable, however referendums don't work if people don't know what they're voting on. We see this with Brexit, people didn't know what they were voting for, and the results are disastrous. If you look at the polling after the first Lisbon referendum, https://www.irishtimes.com/news/post-vote-poll-1.1268589?mode=amp
People did not know what they were voting for. A full 40% of those who voted no said it was due to a lack of knowledge on the treaty, and another 28% was based on fears that it would hurt Irish neutrality, strip us of our commissioner, and give up tax powers, even though it did none of these, it was misinformation. So the second referendum dealt with these issues, doing a better job of educating people on what they were voting on and adding an amendment ensuring our neutrality. People's concerns were listened to and taken into account. Only about 20% of those surveyed were actually against the treaty's substance.
1) no referendum was ignored or voted again with the same treaty.
2) 27 referendums is almost impossible to win.
3) people choose what they want in elections exactly so that they don't have to have referendum on every treaty.
Parfaitement d'accord avec l'article de Daithi Ó Shea
Amigos, Totalmente de acuerdo pero me gustaria comentaros que existe una Fedaracion de Asociaciones FAEF (Federal Alliance of European Federalists) que ha convocado una Convencion de ciudadanos para una Constitucion de la Union Europea Federal.
En primer lugar os dejo el enlace donde en los debates se hablo de la Democracia Directa y por tanto hay que decir que estamos en el buen camino. Ver el enlace siguiente:
https://www.faef.eu/en_gb/forums/topic/1-introduciendo-la-democracia-directa/
Naturalmente podeis seguir el proceso de la Convencion Ciudadana en este enlace:
https://www.faef.eu/en_gb/citizens-convention/
Para que podais participar mandando vuestra aportacion al siguiente Email:
citizensconvention@faef.eu
Tambien os informo que tenemos un evento el proximo dia 13 de Noviembre a las 19.00 h
Mas informacion en este enlace:
https://futureu.europa.eu/processes/EUInTheWorld/f/17/meetings/70655
Javier Giner
https://www.faef.eu/
Eine Frage. Ist Das Neue Infektionsgesetz der Ampel bzw. Vom Bundesrat beschlossen, EU Konvorm?
MfG
Sascha Becker
We have to insist on the will of the people mattering. This will also prevent the federalists' dream of a "United States of Europe".
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