Európai demokrácia
#TheFutureIsYours Az európai demokrácia megerősítése
Europeans need a shared language ... but which one? This is the question we will discuss in a series of debates, in various languages of the Union.
Our next event/debate:
Sunday, 26 September 2021, 19:30 (Brussels time): "Languages and language learning in the EU" on the occasion of the European Day of Languages
Ugrás az esemény weboldalára
Contains the link to the various debates from May 2021 through to March 2022
Contains the link to the various debates from May 2021 through to March 2022
09
május 2021
31
március 2022
Starting at
00:00 DE.
Referencia: cofe-MEET-2021-06-17062
Verziószám: 12 (ennyiből: 12) további verziók megtekintése
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36 hozzászólás
Our Lunchtime Talks is a series of events in English, French and German (for the time being).
Further events in other EU languages are envisaged.
Nos Conférences de midi sont une série d'entretiens en français, anglais et allemand (pour le moment).
D'autres évènements en d'autres langues de l'Union Européenne sont envisagé.
In unserer Reihe "Mittagsrunden" wird derzeit in den Sprachen Deutsch, Englisch und Französisch informiert und diskutiert. Weitere Veranstaltungen in anderen EU-Sprachen sind geplant.
Beszélgetés
Esperanto è una scelta ideologica ed errata, inoltre inapplicabile.
Tuttavia ha senso cercare, ideare, applicare una "lingua franca" in Europa perché senza di essa non può esserci una polis europea. La scelta deve essere fatta su basi scientifico-linguistiche e politiche, non ha senso parlare di Esperanto o qualsivoglia altra soluzione.
Ciao Fabrizio! Saremmo felici di sentire le vostre idee sul tema di una lingua comune per i cittadini dell'UE. I prossimi dibatti si terranno in inglese (21 giugno, 11:55), francese (23 giugno, 11:55) e tedesco (25 giugno, 11:55). Stiamo elaborando gli eventi per le prossime settimane e speriamo di offrire presto un dibattito in italiano. Ci piacerebbe averti ad uno di questi dibattiti!
Beszélgetés
enseigner l’espéranto pendant une année des l’école primaire dans tous les pays de l’UE donnerait un langage commun simple, efficace, neutre et équitable à l’ensemble des futurs citoyens et faciliterait l’apprentissage de plusieurs autres langues, préservant ainsi le multilinguisme de principe.
Cela serait une très bonne mesure éducative. Les enfants apprendraient une langue tout en facilitant l'acquisition d'autres langues
Beszélgetés
If the English language would be taught to the Europeans:
- they would receive a window on the World and offered an opportunity to learn what is going on in economics, medicine, engineering and politics etc.
The English language is widely used in the World.
- a second benefit is that they receive a tool to communicate with other Europeans.
No other language offers these benefits.
Why introduce esperanto ?
I agree with you to some extent: English is widely used - because it has been taught as a foreign language in Europe for decades, now. It's a wonderful language (Thanks to the Brits, who are out, now!). French and Spanish seem popular to learn as well. And that is quite an achievement on a continent which used to be a place of many terrible wars for centuries! With all her flaws, Europe, in the form of the European Union, has come a long way - and should go further!
I do not know Esperanto, but 'google translate' does: Mi sendas salutojn al Eŭropo! So, it's a new patchwork language (like EU) but not many speak it.
The most original candidate, due to historical tradition and as former lingua franca, would actually be Latin. It could be easily dismissed as a dead language. But it is still everywhere, if you have a look.
However, the culturally unifying feature of the Europe & EU is the variety of cultures and languages. Diversity is desired - and part of the Charta (Art. 22) !
Marlies. Do not ask how it came about or if it is difficult.
Students and laymen all over the EU will get an opportunity to benefit from the knowledge built up in the English language.
Books and publications have been published about almost any serious subject you can think of.
You will learn the latest- state of the art- issues.
True, English is a dominant language, especially in academia, and can be a door opener to other societies, even promote democratic ideas and ties through social media!
I love the English language and it was obvious for me to choose it as a major in university. It has become a part of me, switching between German and English.
But I am aware of the success of the English language due to colonial history and, of course, due to political reasons during the Cold War.
Language learning is more than "what is it good for" or "what can I gain from that". There is beauty in the usage and cultivation of language learning in any foreign language ... There are these wonderful encounters with knowledge from learning other languages when dealing with English: E.g. the moment you realize that 'the more French words looks like, the more likely they are to be British English'.
I am not sure: Are there still places in Europe where English is not taught in school?
L'anglais est la langue maternelle d'une infime minorité d'Européens. Mais la langue leur donnerait une position particulièrement dominante. Chacun fait un pas vers l'autre. L'espéranto, langue de culture, est dix moins difficile que l'anglais et bien moins cher. L'espéranto est neutre. Pas d'Etat américain, russe ou anglais derrière.
Depuis le Brexit, l'anglais est une langue d'une minorité de personnes. Trop de textes officiels sont en anglais, généralement traduits par des personnes dont la langue maternelle n'est pas l'anglais ; les traductions -comme l'ont montré de nombreux rapports- sont sujets à caution et sont souvent approximatives. Derrière une langue, il faut surtout voir la domination d'un pays, d'une culture, de façons de vivre : comme si tout ce qui venait des Etats-Unis était bénéfique pour les Européens !
J'ai appris la langue francaise a l'école (7 ans) mais aujourd'hui, j'avoue à ma grande honte, que la langue de notre voisins est trop difficile! Mais les Almands ne peuvent pas aimer sans esprit critique...
Pour moi, la France c'est: camping et la plage, le jardin de Monet, bon sens, Asterix, Lupin, Amelie Poulin, Luis de Funes - et le fromage! Est-que c'est une injure?
A minha sugestão passaria pelo Latim... aparentemente, é uma língua complexa, mas temos essa percepção, porque apenas nos chegam excertos de textos clássicos, escritos pelos figuras mais eruditas da língua, mas, se, averiguarmos se no latim existe vocabulário mais próximo daquele que atualmente utilizamos, se as construções frásicas podem nos ser mais aproximadas daquelas com que estamos mais familiarizados, pode chegar-se à conclusão que sim... em latim é possível simplificar ou complexificar. Ao aprender latim, também estaríamos a promover uma melhor compreensão de cada uma das nossas línguas, pois o latim é a génesis de muitos dos nossos idiomas.
Pedro:
Latin has many advantages for those who learn European languages, but these are mainly in vocabulary. I find it improbable that it could be used as an everyday vehicle of communication. Even Portuguese, as a Romance language, has developed grammatically so differently from Latin and has much more in common with the modern European languages, that you would have considerable problems.
Those who take Esperanto seriously show that they are willing to embrace the true essence of language as a vehicle of communication.
Gerald Tucker
Beszélgetés
Pourquoi promouvoir l'espéranto? Car c'est une langue claire, simple, sans exceptions ni irrégularités et qui offre la possibilité de créer des mots nouveaux très facilement. Il faut 2 ans pour apprendre l'espéranto et 5 à 6 ans (sinon plus!) au moins pour apprendre l'anglais. Un non anglophone est toujours en situation d'infériorité vis à vis d'un anglophone, d'ailleurs les anglophones ne font même plus l'effort d'apprendre une autre langue que la leur!
Enfin, nous ne pouvons pas adopter comme langue commune celle qui est imposée par les Etats-Unis.
D'accord avec vous.
Beszélgetés
Por que não, utilizar uma língua verdadeiramente neutral, que por coincidência se trata da génesis das línguas românticas. Estar a optar por determinada língua oficial de determinados países, será sempre injusto para uma maioria de cidadãos europeus. Não seria algo a implementar de um dia para o outro, mas algo gradual, em que lentamente se integraria o latim na vida dos europeus. Inicialmente, seria apenas um idioma ensinado nas escolas, ao lado dos idiomas que atualmente têm mais relevância.
Uma questão importante, o vocabulário que atualmente se utiliza, não é o mesmo que o que se utilizava para as obras clássicas do Latim, mas no latim existe o vocabulário que atualmente o mundo mais utiliza, ou seja, como em qualquer idioma, existe vocabulário erudito, e portanto a compreensão poderá ser mais complexo pelas pessoas, e o mesmo se passa com o Latim.
Pedro. Latin may be useful when you study law or history. However a European language should be a tool to develop Europeans in the EU as well as beyond.
The english language is not only the language of the British, but also of a leading Nation like the USA, and of Canada, Australia and India.
It is also the langauge used in industries like Aerospace, It, Medicals, Defence, etc.
I am not a native speaker but I have seen the benefits of mastering the english language.
If the EU would chose any other language than English it would be hurting itself.
It will lose on economic development and lose on international competitiveness.
As the EU wants to be strong and properous this will not help.
Permita-me discordar. Não dúvido que o Latim seja útil para áreas da História e Direito, mas não só. Não é necessário grande investigação para encontrar em muitas línguas , diversos vestígios, pelo que, é no latim onde se reúnem todos os vestígios dispersos pelos vários idiomas, daí que vários estudos científicos concluam que saber previamente Latim, facilita a aprendizagem de diferentes idiomas. A própria União Europeia, de modo a expressar neutralidade institucional, optou por denominar várias instituições, com Latim, mas não se estendeu além disso, pelo que se subentende que, o Latim seria mais neutral
, deseje uma máximo de neutralidade e entendimento, pelo menos, ao nível europeu, o Inglês, como foi o Francês, representa tudo menos essa neutralidade cultural pelas instituições europeias, apenas revela a proeminência dos Estados Unidos da América e Reino Unido sobre a União Europeia.
Por exemplo, esta plataforma é multilingue, e não sabendo se a sua língua materna é aquela em que escreveu o seu comentário anterior, eu lamentaria que não o tivesse feito.
Se argumenta que, deve ser o Inglês, porque os EUA, Canadá e Austrália o têm como oficial, então esse é o argumento pela força... trata-se de subjugação linguística e cultural... Você, já deveria estar a aprender um pouco de Mandarim, adquiriram muita influência nos últimos anos... O Latim, teria pertinência mundial, não exclusivamente europeia, as línguas românticas não se encontram exclusivamente na Europa, tal como o Inglês, cuja grande parte da sua substância é proveniente do latim.
A União Europeia, não pretende, nem deve ter intervenção europeia, mas sim mundial, pelo que, considero que o Latim deveria acompanhar a UE, e a sua expansão democrática.
Beszélgetés
Pedro. The EEC, plus some additional institutions, have the most benefits to all members.
Everything else you add, such as an extra language, makes integration of these 27 very diverse members more difficult. To my knowledge no-one speaks latin or esperanto.
If you are afraid of being subjugated, look at the Global Competitiveness Index.
You also see the an democratic expansion of the EU. In the EU France and Germany comprise 34 % of the population, with two leaders making the major decisions tete-a- tete. The majority of the Europeans are not represented. I think the EU is a Franco-German cooperation rapidly developing into an autocracy. With France isolating itself evermore in the World.
Henk, zo bezien lijkt er geen sprake van democratische expansie maar van democratische implosie.
Henk:
You just hit upon your main problem: Lack of knowledge. Obviously you have done nothing to update your state of information about Latin or Esperanto. The subject is too important to be so neglected.
Obviously the French and German leaders can act that way because other EU-members are letting it happen. Would they do so if Europe had a common language to offset the inequality? I find that worth testing.
Gerald Tucker
I'm aware that the following may sound like bragging, but I'm just making an effort to show that I know what I'm talking about.
To Marlies: I find all languages wonderful.
Spanish, because it was the first foreign language I had contact with, inspired by a pretty Cuban girl in my third grade class in Florida.
I started learning my mother tongue pre-school from comics and street advertisements. In Florida I was sent by by school to the State Spelling Bee.
In High School I received a small scholarship for my achievements in foreign languages (French and German). Thanks to that I was accepted at the US Army Language School for a 12-month Russian Course. I finished as ninth in a class of 59 and was allowed to choose Germany as my next assignment. At the school's book store I bought a Teach Yourself Esperanto book. On leaving the Army I became active in the German Esperanto movement. As an English teacher I took part in a Turkish course at Augsburg University. More in my replies. G.Tucker
I see I can continue here, so please regard the last as preliminary.
I am still proficient in three of those languages (English, German, Esperanto), but I remember a lot about the others. That's why I can understand most of the contributions here and react to some.
I delved into Latin on my own and could cope with its grammar thanks to Russian. The main advantage of Latin is that all European languages have a considerable amount of vocabulary from it. I profit from that all the time.
My main point is that Latin and English are "victor" languages. At the time tthey were spreading, they were the vehicle of military campaigns, where the victor got to determine the language of the conquered region.
With Esperanto the Europeans have a choice. The minimum choice is at least to take this potential solution seriously.
Gerald Tucker
Beszélgetés
To Henk:
For one thing, English is taught to Europeans (I did and do so myself), although many are not happy about that, particularly in the fields you named.
English is indeed used widely. It is a l s o widely m i s u s e d - to suppress competition.
The best - and most ethical - way to communicate with other Europeans is to learn their language, and not use one from a nation who has fled the union. Or are we to become "colonial", like so many Africans? The British are gone, their language remains.
As to Esperanto, it is used in some 120 countries - mainly to c o m m u n i c a t e .
You are right about some things, but your inability to take Esperanto seriously impairs your argumentation.
Gerald Tucker
To Gerald.
In the EU we have 23 different languages.
The EU is also doing business all over the entire world.
It has a competing economy, so it needs to keep up to date on developments in science and industry, which is mostly published in english.
For all these reasons English is currently the best choice,
I have worked for many years in business in the EU and beyond.
However I cannot remember once that I received a document, a report, an e-mail or book in Esperanto.
One of the best investments the EU could do is teach their young people the English language.
For most people a language is just a tool, and that use what is practical in the World.
Henk,
As a native speaker of English (although American), I could be flattered about your attitude. As a European (since 1975) and due to Brexit, I resent it. English has many merits, but it has disrupted too many cultures around the world to be the language of a multiculture it no longer belongs to.
Gerald Tucker
Please join our presentation on the occasion of the European Day of Languages, 26 September 2021, 19:30 (Brussels time): "Languages and language learning in the EU" (Zoom conference)
https://padlet.com/EEU/eeu
I do not want to be rude, but the fact is there are over 370 million English speakers out of about 450 million EU residents!
https://www.europelanguagejobs.com/blog/English-Speaking-Countries-Europe
The language of Europe is English already. Exibit A: the majority of the comments and the whole discussion here is in English 😀
Also all academic publications nowadays all are in English.
People in EU should learn English to be able to communicate with the rest of the world, also because we are all used to communicating in English, plus another European language they would chose, and finally sign language. Thanks to sign language, people would understand any lecture given in any language (if they are not given in English) and translated in this language, and deaf people would be much better integrated because they would be able to communicate with everybody, not just those who also speak sign language like them. I am not deaf myself but I have always thought deaf people should be better integrated.
Ελληνικά, αρχαία και νέα. Η Ευρώπη ήταν, είναι και θα είναι Ελληνική. Η γλώσσα των Επιστημών και του Πολιτισμού, είναι μία και αξεπέραστη: η Ελληνική. Χαίρετε και υγιαίνετε. -
Természetesen egy nagyon jó megoldást kínálna, ha minden európai állampolgár egy nyelven tudna kommunikálni, viszont, minden ország nyelvének nagyon fontos szerepe van az adott ország kultúrájában, amely szinte eltörölhetetlen, és ez így van rendjén.
A közös nyelv megoldás lehet, de csak minden ország hivatalos nyelve mellett.
Out of practicality, this should be English. English is one of the simplest languages and a lot of people already speak it. Things based on history should be out of question entirely, be it Latin or Greek or whatever the people before suggested. Those languages are completely impractical and not used anywhere.
Esperanto has failed to gain a substantial amount of speakers. I think if humans ever choose the path of non-natural languages, such language should be developed with deep understanding of how human brain works, to extend the mental capabilities through such language if it is possible - we're simply not there yet in research.
I also think that there should be a possibility to opt out of learning the national language - that is, teach English and conduct all education (remotely) in English and make so that it does not become a barrier when living in EU. Right now I can imagine the education part, but life would be impossible in most countries within EU, especially in the east.
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